#098 How to Train According to the Experts

Comprehensive training guide: distilling 100 episodes of expert exercise advice

Rhonda and Brady Homer synthesize cutting-edge research from leading exercise physiologists into an actionable guide for cardiorespiratory fitness.

"So can you talk a little bit more about, you mix in high-intensity interval training into your workouts, but why do you think there's this sort of non-responder effect? Or there's probably multiple reasons for it, Thank you. about like you you mix in you know high intensity interval training into your workouts but like why do you think there's this sort of non-responder effect or there's probably multiple reasons for it but like what's the rationale for adding in more a vigorous type of exercise or high intensity interval training into a workout to improve cardio risk pre-fitness yeah so i think if you take a group of people who have never trained before kind of unfit people and just give them a lot of lower intensity or, you know, what people might refer to as zone two training, everybody is going to kind of improve because you have, it's a new training stimulus. You know, you've never trained before. You add some exercise. Okay. Well, obviously you're going to get fitter. And you mentioned the concept of non-responders, which has kind of been around in like exercise physiology for a while. And it essentially refers to, you give people exercise training program program there are some people who don't improve for some reason or another they're vo2 max and i think there's kind of a debate on there where it might just be due to like a measurement error instead of actually a non-response but like you just mentioned when you give those people high intensity interval training everybody responds there's some kind of recent studies that show that very well you just increase their dose of exercise or their intensity or both and they improve their fitness so they're just basically not doing enough and so that points to the fact that if you want to get better you need to add in some higher intensity interval training obviously you can increase the dose of your moderate intensity training to your volume but adding a greater stimulus you know that seems to be the main benefit of doing high intensity training you can can't just do the same thing. You can't just do low intensity training all the time. You need to not only mix it up for variety, but you need to give your body a greater stimulus if you want it to adapt and improve. And so Dr. Martin Gabala was talking a lot during your interview about the importance of doing that, doing HIIT probably at least once a week, elevating your heart rate just to get that additional stimulus to force your body to adapt, get stronger, for your heart to get stronger, and for your cardiovascular system to get fitter. Yeah, it's actually, Dr. Levine also mentioned something similar where he was saying, you know, you have to continually stress your cardiovascular system to have the adaptations, the beneficial adaptations. And so if you keep doing the same thing without ever adding an additional stress or stimulus, then you're only going to stay the same, maybe. You're not really going to improve, right? And so it does make sense from that aspect as well. Since we're talking about vigorous intensity and adding more of a a stressor and a more stronger stimulus, maybe you can recap some of what Dr. Levine, Dr. Kabbalah talked about on the podcast when they were sort of defining the various training zones and what these zones are. Because there is a lot of information out there on that, which can be quite confusing to people. It can be. And some people will like to use zones for training. I think it's common in sort of the exercise with, you know, coaches who are coaching endurance athletes to use this five zone model. If people, you know, are familiar with listening to podcasts on fitness, they'll probably hear people reference five zones. There are obviously other zones to use. But yeah, Dr. Levine defined these sort of five training zones. And kind of before I go and define what these are and how people can use them to guide their training, I think it's, he kind of defined them using three different metrics and that we're going to use to define each of the zones. But lactate levels are one way to do it, but we're not really going to discuss that because in reality, you know, most people are not going to be measuring their lactate levels weekly, monthly, or even, you know, certainly not daily during exercise. And so it's kind of a moot point to say, you know, zone two exercise is this lactate level. Most people don't really know what that is. And so there are other ways to measure intensities and use these zones. One way is just your rating of perceived exertion or RPE. And this is just a subjective measure of how hard you think you're exercising. And this is typically on a six to 20 scale. Now that might seem kind of weird for people like, oh, why is it not one to 10? One to 10 is kind of typical when people use like a, how hard is this scale? But it's called the Borg RPE scale. And the six to 20 is essentially because the initially the theory behind that scale was that you were just at a zero to whatever your RPE was, and that would correspond to your heart rate. So say average person has a maximal heart rate of around 200. If I give you an RPE of 18, that means my heart rate's probably around 180, which is a fairly high intensity. Whereas maybe my RPE right now is a six, maybe my heart rate's 60, that's like a resting heart rate. So that's kind of the idea behind that scale, so people kind of can understand what that means and why we're doing six to 20 versus one to 10. Another way is to use the talk test. And that's essentially just like, are you able to do a full conversation, barely get out words or not talk at all? That's kind of another way to kind of gauge zones. The next and the final way to describe the zone is to be based on your percentage of your maximal heart rate. And a lot of people have heart rate monitors, so they're going to be able to measure their heart rate during exercise. So we're going to define zones using all three of those kind of metrics. So if we look at zone one, this is going to be a recovery intensity. This is pretty much easy as you can go. It's not resting, but it's very, very light activity. So on the RPE scale, this is going to be anywhere from a six to an eight. It's going to be about 50 to 60% of your maximal heart rate. And if you're going to use the talk test to measure that intensity, it would be you could hold a full conversation. So what you and I are doing right now, Rhonda, just talking, having a podcast, you could basically do that if you were in zone one or recovery intensity because you're going on an easy walk or something like that. Zone two intensity, people will hear about zone two training all the time. This is still kind of a low, a light to a moderate intensity exercise. So it's going to correspond to an RPE of about nine to 12, 60 to 70% of your maximal heart rate. and then the talk test, again, you should be able to have a conversation in zone two. If someone were listening to you, they could probably tell you were exercising, but in general, you could hold pretty much a full conversation. And so these, you know, zone one and zone two, those are going to be your light to moderate intensity exercises. In particular, you know, that zone two training good for kind of building your aerobic base. Then there's zone 3. This is kind of veering into the territory of high intensity interval training. It's thought of a lot as your threshold intensity or maybe steady state exercise. It's going to correspond to an RPE of 13 to 15, about 70 to 80% of your maximal heart rate. And then this is where talking gets a little bit difficult so you could speak in broken sentences it's still not you're not gasping for air yet but you can speak in broken sentences and that would be a good way to indicate kind of this zone during using the talk test and then zone four this is where you get into the high intensity training so it's a 16 to 18 r's, you know, 80 to 95% of your maximal heart rate. And you could probably only speak one word or two at a time, maybe if you were trying to gauge that zone based on the talk test. And then zone five, that's maximal exercise intensity, that's your VO2 max, it's as hard as you can go. So RPE 19 or 20, it's 95 plus percent of your maximal heart rate. And then you shouldn't be able to talk. So if you're doing, you know, Tabata intervals or something like that, this is zone five, you shouldn't be able to talk at all during that exercise intensity. So those are the five zones. And I think what's cool about having all these different metrics to define the zones is that, you know, if people don't really want to train using heart rate, or maybe they don't even have a heart rate monitor, they can use the talk test, they can use RPE, or maybe a combination of all three of these. And they're pretty reliable. I mean, they've all of these have been kind of well evidenced to correspond to the different zones. But I think what's nice is that people can use these to train and it doesn't require a lot of technical ability, a lot of experience. And so this is, I think, you know, in my mind, the best way that people can think about kind of training intensities is using the zones as we define them here, at least using those as a guide. I really like the talk test way of defining it because as you were sitting here talking about this, I was thinking about my whole exercise protocol. And I'm like, OK, oh, yeah, that's actually what I thought was more zone two is really more zone three, what I'm doing here. With respect to heart rate monitors, do you, I know Levine mentioned there can be a lot of error with using some like a smartwatch and is there more accuracy in using something like a chest strap, like maybe a polar strap versus a smartwatch versus like the talk test. So let's say you don't have a chest strap. Should you be using a talk test or can you still use your smartwatch? Is it still, what's more accurate? Yeah, I think the accuracy of the smartwatches is obviously there. They've been validated against EKG and things like that. But as Levine mentioned, and as others have kind of drawn caution, they tend to get less accurate as the intensity of exercise increases. They're not perfect because, you know, it's getting your heart rate reading from a sensor on your wrist versus your chest. So I would encourage everybody to invest in a heart rate chest, you know, a chest trap monitor. It's less than $100 investment. It's going to give you a lot more accurate data. Some people find them uncomfortable, but most of them now are pretty comfortable. And if you really want to train using heart rate, I would say invest invest in the chest strap. But you know, the watches aren't totally off and they can be used as a good kind of reference as to as to where you are. But like I said, in my experience, and I think the experience of others, the harder that you go, the higher the intensity goes kind of the less accurate that they get. So if you want to use heart rate, great. It can be a good indicator. But the talk test is a very good, I think, way to assess your exercise intensity, especially for people who are newer. So I think one of the not flaws with RPE, but one of the caveats is that you need a little bit of experience to really know where you're at, like how hard something is. I mean, if somebody has never actually gone to a maximal intensity, then how do you know what a 20 out of 20 is if you've never really reached the point of volitional exhaustion? So if somebody is just beginning to exercise, they might be at 70% of their maximal intensity, but they might think that they're at a 20. So it takes time to learn kind of what your RPE is to be able to assess that accurately. So I would say, you know, if people are more experienced with exercise, then you could use something like RPE to kind of gauge your intensity. But those newer to exercise might actually have a lot of good feedback with the talk test. I even kind of use that. I mean, you know, it's if you're running with a group of people and you can have a conversation, OK, well, we're probably in zone two. If I'm really struggling to like breathe, then I might be in zone three, four or even five. So I think it's a great way to use the talk test. Anybody can use it. But I think newer people might benefit more from that. And I think also what people can think about doing is using a combination of all three. You know, you can use heart rate, you can use RPE, you can use the talk test and maybe see if those, you know, correlate with one another during exercise. But use all of those to kind of inform your exercise intensity. Exactly. I usually am not wearing, I do have a chest strap. I have a Polish chest strap. I have used it before, but I'm not typically wearing it when I'm doing a workout. And so I think using my Apple Watch along with the talk test, because I often have someone with me when I'm working out, is like, okay, well, maybe it's not entirely accurate as I'm getting into my zone three, perhaps zone four. But I know I can't talk more than a word. So it's clearly like, it's good to combine them both. So I want to, there's a lot of interest in zone two training. I talked about zone two training with Dr. Martin Gabala, a little bit with Dr. Ben Levine. And I want to ask you, maybe you can talk a little bit about what are the benefits of zone two training? Are there unique benefits of zone two training metabolically, cardiorespiratory, health-wise? And as you were explaining and defining some of these zones, I was thinking to myself even, what's the real difference between zone two and what you would call zone three, right? This threshold type of training as well, right? So I'd love to hear. yeah the benefits of zoom to training i think are are kind of vast i mean a lot of people will talk about how some of the main benefits are going to be. It really serves as a foundation for building your aerobic base. You know, it's good for, maybe I should step back a little bit and kind of define what Zoom 2 is, maybe based on the exercise physiologist's definition of it, which would be, it's kind of the intensity where you're maximizing your mitochondrial fat oxidation. It's a steady state exercise, less so than a threshold like intensity. And so your lactate levels, it's typically measured during lactate is kind of the accurate way to do it. So your lactate levels are steady, they're not increasing. Some will actually give like a lactate number being about two millimolar. I mean, I think there may be some debate about that because i think i've as i've heard you talk about multiple times you know people will have different lactate levels and so two millimolar might not represent a zone two intensity for everyone um it might differ based on whether you're unfit or you're a fit athlete or something like that so um i think it's important though that you're at a steady your lactate levels levels aren't continually rising during zone two training. But the key, I think, and one of the main benefits purported for zone two is that you're improving your fat burning capacity, not only during exercise, but also your mitochondria's ability to oxidize fat as an energy source, because that's the intensity at which the fat oxidation, the mitochondria is maximal. Zone two training, you know, elite athletes are doing a lot of it in particular, just because their exercise volumes are so high. And so I think one of the, you know, areas of not disagreement, but kind of conflict is that people will say, you need to do a lot of zone two training. You know, it needs to make up a majority of your exercise training. And a lot of what that those people are referring to, whether they're coaches, is that, you know, they're elite athletes doing 20 to 30 hours a week. Well, obviously, they do a lot of zone 2 training because they're exercising for 20 to 30 hours per week. You know, there are certainly benefits to that for building the aerobic base that allows you to do a high level of volume without burnout. There's a very low injury risk with zone 2 training because it's a lighter intensity."

Why some people don't respond to zone 2 alone: adding HIIT fixes non-responders

Untrained people initially improve on any program, but some plateau on low-intensity work alone.

"If you take a group of unfit people and just give them a lot of zone two training, everybody is going to improve. But there are some people who plateau."

Committed exercisers' hearts look like 30-year-olds: Levine's youthful heart research

Seniors who exercised consistently 4-5 days/week had cardiac structure resembling healthy 30-year-olds. The dose needs to be higher than many expect.

"Their hearts, structurally, these are people that are older, their hearts looked like healthy 30-year-olds."

Rest 2-5 min between sets; Schoenfeld and other experts on optimal training variables

Expert consensus on resistance training variables: 2-5 minute rest periods, training near failure, and combining with aerobic work for cardiovascular.

"Dr. Schoenfeld mentioned between two to five minutes, depending on the weight that you're lifting, depending on how you feel."

Creatine as a top-tier supplement: Phillips and Norton both recommend it

Stuart Phillips and Layne Norton independently rank creatine as a top supplement.

"I take it. You take it. We will be back. Norton both mentioned creatine as one of their top tier supplements that they take. Lots and lots of evidence on safety and efficacy. I take it, you take it. Maybe you can talk a little bit about, you know, just summarize briefly for people, what are some of the benefits of creatine supplementation, how people should start, dose, you know, some of the best practices. I think creatine, I feel like it's probably like one of the most popular supplements these days and everybody is taking it or if they're not, they probably should be due to the evidence that's coming out. So yeah, creatine, it, you know, it's something that we get from the diet, but that you can supplement with it to get more. Regarding, you know, how much you should take, I think that currently the recommendations and, you know, based on what Dr. Stu Phillips and Leigh Norton and others said, taking 5 to 10 grams per day appears to be the optimal dose. If you're a bit larger, you could maybe, you know, take 10 to 15, but even 5 grams per day after a while will probably saturate your muscle creatine stores, especially if you're consuming a lot of meat, which does contain creatine too. So you're getting some from your diet and supplementing. So in regards to how to dose, there was once a thought that you had to do this loading dose when you started supplementing. So you take 20 grams per day for a week, and then you go down to a maintenance dose of 5 to 10 grams per day indefinitely. The loading dose isn't necessarily recommended anymore. It's pretty much just start taking 5 to 10 grams per day tomorrow and never stop it. So the loading dose doesn't appear to be optimal unless for some reason you need to get your muscle creatine stores up, you know, in the next few days. Then you need to take a loading dose. But for most people, that doesn't appear to be important. So it's a pretty easy supplement to take. It doesn't matter what time of day you take it because it doesn't have the acute benefits. So just find a time during the day when it works and makes sense to take it, take five to 10 grams and just continue to take it. It seems to have benefits for muscle performance and building strength. Obviously that's kind of where the main benefits are probably most evidenced. And it was thought of as being like this bodybuilding strength supplement, which it obviously is. So it allows you to train harder, which then allows you to build more strength and muscle mass. But I think there's a lot of evidence coming out that it might be good for older adults to take for muscle strength as well. For endurance athletes, it probably makes sense for them to take it. And then there's a lot of stuff coming out about creatine in the brain for, you know, during sleep deprivation. So just a lot of evidence that it's good to take. There appear to be very few side effects. It's very safe. And all of the myths, I think Stu was talking about some of the myths regarding hair loss or kidney health. And Lane even mentioned some of those, and none of those really appear to be valid. Creatine is well studied."